[Alt-photo] Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: DAS

Job Zeilstra job.zeilstra at gmail.com
Wed Apr 13 12:06:58 UTC 2016


In addition to the remarks of Udo

/"but some of the organic azides are on the same level of sensitiveness 
and explosiveness as e.g. lead azide, which is used in detonators."/

I may substantiate this with some "nice" examples. Source: The Royal 
Institute of Chemistry. Lectures, Monographs, and Reports, 1959 No.5, 
"Modern Explosives" by the late Wilfrid Taylor:
- Trinitrotriazidobenzene, a powerful initiating explosive, ....
- Cyanuric triazide, a rather hazardous inintiating explosive, 
detonating immediately from a flame , ...
Both chemicals are aromatic (and therefore also organic) azides.
By the way, an organic compound needs at least _two_ azido-groups for 
having crosslinking abilities.

Job Zeilstra



Op 12-4-2016 om 7:11 schreef BJ68 via Alt-photo-process-list:
> LOL sorry....Kees
>
> a) The term "organic azide" is the "umbrella term" for this kind of compounds
>
> b) And "sodium azide" is apart from the toxicity one of the simple azides which can be handled without problems. The really nasty azides are heavy metal azides like lead or copper azide with are very sensitive to shock and friction (own experience; lost a few fingertips).
> That means that the statement of Mr. sehrgut "Most importantly, the organic azides are not explosive like sodium azide is." is not true. He is partly right that organic azides (= aromatic azides) are different from the inorganic azides...*but some of the organic azides are on the same level of sensitiveness 
> and explosiveness as e.g. lead azide, which is used in detonators. *
>
> c) See http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic208898.files/week_of_Dec_3rd/Bräse-Organoazides.pdf for more information
> That is the reason why organic azides are extensive used in organic chemistry...
>
> d) And if you have further doubts, take "phenyl azide" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenyl_azide which is without doubt a "aromatic azide" and look up the synthesis at http://www.orgsyn.org/demo.aspx?prep=cv3p0710 and here you read "2. Care must be exercised during the distillation. Phenyl azide explodes when heated at ordinary pressure, and occasionally at lower pressures. The water-bath temperature should never be permitted to rise above 80° at any time." so according to Mr. sehrgut this compound can not be explosive, because it´s an aromatic azide...why is there then the warning written?
>
>
> e) At least there are accidents with organic azides:
> https://www.aiha.org/get-involved/VolunteerGroups/LabHSCommittee/Pages/Explosive-Decomposion-of-an-Organic-Azide.aspx
>
>
> I am not a chemist, but I had 3 years of chemistry study at a university...and later I worked in peptide synthesis in Honolulu. At home I made some synthesis:
> http://illumina-chemie.de/bis(25-di-t-butylphenyl)-34910-perylenbis(dicarboximid)-t3647.html
> and a few others in the university
> http://illumina-chemie.de/synthese-von-cppo-t3196.html
> http://illumina-chemie.de/synthese-nnn-trimethylethylenediamin-142-25-6-t3207.html
> http://illumina-chemie.de/preparation-35-dichloro-2-hydroxybenzenesulfonyl-chloride-t3214.html
>
> So my background is more organic chemistry....
>
> And here is one MSDS for your compound https://www.spectrumchemical.com/MSDS/TCI-D1606.pdf which says that the compound is not so harmless...so I have little doubts at the knowledge of the user "sehrgut" some parts of this statement is not true (not explosive like sodium azide) and some is partly incorrect (organic azides are not explosive)*.
>
> *= depends on the number of azide groups in the molecule, the structure (aliphatic, cyclic or aromatic) and the other ligands. My knowledge is not enough to give a exact statement. But I know enough to estimate such compounds and to know if I have to be careful if they are dry (or can dry out) and if they are undiluted...
>
>
> Udo
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----"Alt-photo-process-list" <alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org> schrieb: -----
> An: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org
> Von: Kees Brandenburg via Alt-photo-process-list	
> Gesendet von: "Alt-photo-process-list"
> Datum: 11.04.2016 20:37
> Kopie: Kees Brandenburg <workshops at polychrome.nl>
> Betreff: Re: [Alt-photo] Antwort: Re:  DAS
>
>> DAS is a organic azide.
> DAS is not a simple azide but an aromatic azide. From the Apug tread about the DAS group buy:
>
> “Simple azide salts are indeed pretty nasty, but aromatic azides are different animals. Kinda like the difference between simple cyanide salts (like sodium cyanide) and complex cyanides (like potassium ferricyanide). Most importantly, the organic azides are not explosive like sodium azide is.”
>
> http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?threads/group-purchase-of-azide-diazo-sensitizer-replacement-for-dichromate-in-carbon-etc.95006/#post-1262715
>
> Maybe someone with more knowledge about this can chime in…
>
> Kees
>
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