[Alt-photo] salted paper

Marek Matusz marekmatusz at hotmail.com
Thu Sep 15 23:30:24 UTC 2016

I think it is a legitimate chemical term whether it is in general use or I have translated it slightly I am not sure. 
I will look at your notes again. One thing why the ammonia silver solution might have faded is their stability. And back in the days they kept large amounts of silver solutions as tray sansitizing was the norm. Silver nitrate is indefinitely stable as solid and water solutions
Hope u get back to salt printing it is such s magical process


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 3:36 PM, Keith Schreiber via Alt-photo-process-list <alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> wrote:
> Hey Marek,
> Did you make up that word "ammoniacal"? I like it! Sounds like maniacal. Seriously though, I still have a bottle of 13% ammoniated silver nitrate from way back when I assisted Michael Gray at a workshop at CCP. It must be around 15 years old, maybe older. I do remember extreme care being used mixing the solution, but I don't remember any details other than I was sent over to the chemistry department for some ammonia and nitric acid, and I recall there was some discussion of aqua regia. 
> It's been in a full tightly stoppered bottle all this time. I just opened it, no odor of ammonia, or anything. Still clear as can be. Shortly after the workshop, I compared it to plain silver nitrate and was surprised not to find any difference, at least nothing I could identify. But this was a long time ago and my memory of it is fuzzy. 
> It is not mentioned in Michael's salt printing pamphlets, one of which is attached as a PDF file to the little article on salt printing I wrote last winter. See my website, the title is Secrets of the Black Art. My experience with salt is very limited, though I'd love to get back to it someday.
> Cheers,
> Keith
> Keith Schreiber
> jkschreiber.com
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 12:49 PM, Marek Matusz via Alt-photo-process-list <alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> wrote:
>> I would be very interested to hear about ammoniacal silver solution. As Chris noted it was very popular in early literature and then it disappeared from practice. I think these papers will fume out ammonia as they dry so something to watch for. 
>> Also the preparation should be done carefully following the recipe. These ammoniacal silver solution are not stable and can precipitate explosive silver nitrade on standing (that's my chemistry contribution for the day )
>> On a separate note Chris did u use gelatin in the Rochelle salt recipe. 
>> Marek
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> On Sep 14, 2016, at 4:23 PM, Christina Z. Anderson via Alt-photo-process-list <alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> wrote:
>>> Gloss was said to be unnatural, not like the eye sees. That is so foreign to us today, with most preferring gelatin silver glossy, for instance.
>>> LOTS of ammonio-nitrate silver formulas going on and then not really any in present day practice. I’ve come across several reasons why it dropped out of favor, which it did, but the ammonia-nitrate was as early as Taylor’s 1840 book. 
>>> I posted a gold-toned Rochelle salt salted paper print to the Hahnemuhle/Carol Boss FB page. It such a scrumptuous warm brown.
>>> Talk about things to try. On my list is to try and replicate that brilliant orange tone they had in shadows of some of the prints from the 1800s.
>>> Chris
>>>> On Sep 14, 2016, at 2:30 PM, Ned Lewis via Alt-photo-process-list <alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> wrote:
>>>> :) Thanks!
>>>> Maybe with the rich brown tones, shiny becomes something even worse than a
>>>> snail's playground.
>>>> I don't use enough gelatin in my salt prints to produce much noticeable
>>>> gloss, but I'm very curious about how starch and arrowroot will affect the
>>>> look of the print and trying those is on my "todo" list -- along with
>>>> dozens of other things.  Next up is sensitizing with ammonio-nitrate of
>>>> silver instead of AgNO3
>>>> <https://www.flickr.com/groups/1384661@N22/discuss/72157663930936509/>.
>>>> Cheers!
>>>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 11:16 AM, Christina Z. Anderson via
>>>> Alt-photo-process-list <alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Ned,
>>>>> Matte paper was really in at one point, and albumen was characterized like
>>>>> this: "The slimy appearance of albumenized paper, giving the print the
>>>>> appearance of a magnified snails’ playground, has always been objectionable
>>>>> to me...” 15 Clark
>>>>> Them’s fightin’ words for albumen printers.
>>>>> Oddly, the objection to albumen’s gloss started early on, not just at the
>>>>> turn of the century. So I can’t understand why it was so popular all those
>>>>> years.
>>>>> When platinum was invented it was all the rage, for its very rich,
>>>>> dramatic brown-black color. So its look influenced how people practiced
>>>>> salt, and it was a much cheaper way of getting a platinum look, to tone a
>>>>> salt print considering a mere few mls will tone quite a few prints.
>>>>> This was about the same time they were combining arrowroot with albumen to
>>>>> cut the gloss, too.
>>>>> It was said that gelatin-sized papers weren’t as good for platinum toning
>>>>> as arrowroot sized papers but the few authors that said that did not say
>>>>> why, if it was a chemical reason or aesthetic. It was as if they assumed
>>>>> everyone knew that so it didn’t need to be explained. Someone on the list
>>>>> may have an exact reason why…but in toning with platinum I have no problem
>>>>> with toning gelatin-sized prints so my guess is it was an aesthetic
>>>>> statement.
>>>>> This is all off the top of my head though, don’t have time to search
>>>>> through all my notes.
>>>>> Chris
>>>>> On Sep 14, 2016, at 11:44 AM, Ned Lewis via Alt-photo-process-list <
>>>>> alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> wrote:
>>>>>> I think I remember reading a Rodolfo Namias recipe that includes zinc
>>>>>> chloride.
>>>>>> Chris, I'm curious why you say that arrowroot would be perfect for
>>>>> platinum
>>>>>> toning... is there a reason why platinum toner would work better or look
>>>>>> nicer with a matte print or with arrowroot?  Or just that platinum toning
>>>>>> was common during the same era that starch or arrowroot was in use?
>>>>>> Ned
>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 8:36 AM, Serdar Bilici via
>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list <
>>>>>> alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Christina,
>>>>>>> I haven't tried that formula. I recall reading in some old text that in
>>>>>>> small amounts cupric chloride helps to increase contrast.
>>>>>>> I've just adjusted the regular formula (salt, citrate and gelatine) and
>>>>>>> replaced the table salt with cupric chloride.
>>>>>>> It was an attempt to achieve different colors with salt prints. Cupric
>>>>>>> chloride prints out as expected.
>>>>>>> The print is very beautiful magenta much vivid than regular salt prints
>>>>> but
>>>>>>> it starts to fade in wet process.
>>>>>>> I tried a few chemicals in first wash to precipitate the copper hoping
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> it wont bleach the silver image but no success.
>>>>>>> I think I might have seen zinc chloride somewhere. It is quite soluble
>>>>> in
>>>>>>> ethanol, that is why I tried it with collodio-chloride (as strontium
>>>>>>> chloride substitute).
>>>>>>> It works with regular salt prints too. Salt print with zinc chloride
>>>>> prints
>>>>>>> quite fast, but they are very prone to bronzing. Nothing special about
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> color, Zinc chloride is hard to store, it is very very deliquescent.
>>>>>>> What about casein for sizing?, someone must have tried that.
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> Serdar
>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 6:06 PM, Christina Z. Anderson via
>>>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list <alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> How exciting; I have added quite a few of you now to my list!
>>>>>>>> Serdar, did you do Thomson’s formula of 1908?
>>>>>>>> 18g cupric chloride
>>>>>>>> 18g gum arabic
>>>>>>>> 1 liter water
>>>>>>>> up to 1ml potassium dichromate 1% optional.
>>>>>>>> Silver is 12.5% with 5.7% added citric and 0.5% gum arabic.
>>>>>>>> He goes on to say that either ammonium or sodium will suffice as well.
>>>>>>>> I think Marek might have tried it, too, and found it a bust. Marek, am
>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> remembering this correctly?
>>>>>>>> I can count that in all the formulas I recorded 88 use ammonium 66 use
>>>>>>>> sodium 7 use barium, 1 cupric, 1 strontium. So obviously barium,
>>>>> cupric,
>>>>>>>> strontium were outliers. I’ve used barium and did not like it. I sized
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>> more sheets with it to see if I still feel that way. The color was a
>>>>>>> poopy
>>>>>>>> yellow-brown and the paper felt like it had a deposit on it, scratchy.
>>>>>>>> 64 gelatin 26 arrowroot or common starch, 54 no sizing agent, 3 agar
>>>>>>> agar,
>>>>>>>> 1 Icelandic moss.
>>>>>>>> Of course, by far albumen is ubiquitous in the literature but I wasn’t
>>>>>>>> researching it.
>>>>>>>> In other words I can see trends, e.g. from no sizing at all until
>>>>> gelatin
>>>>>>>> came in and in the late 1800s arrowroot was talked about a lot because
>>>>>>>> glossy was out, matte was in, and it was perfect for platinum toning.
>>>>>>>> The big variance is in the amount of gelatin. 1-28g per liter. I
>>>>> usually
>>>>>>>> use 8, tried 20 and I did not notice any benefit to a larger amount.
>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> most common amount back in the day was 2.3g
>>>>>>>> OK enough geeking out for the day.
>>>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>>>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:45 AM, Serdar Bilici <sbilici at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I do salt prints too. I have been stalking all the salt printing posts
>>>>>>>> for a while.
>>>>>>>>> Btw, I have tried using purely cupric chloride  for salt prints. There
>>>>>>>> is no way to stop the bleachig while wet processing due to the presence
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> copper.
>>>>>>>>> But in very small amounts it is a better contrast control agent than
>>>>>>>> dichromates.
>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>> Serdar
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